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    January 04

    Failed Adventures with MOSS 2007

    Over the past year, our company swam deep in the pools of MOSS 2007, fully expecting it to be a functional replacement to our aging, piecemealed, pre-.NET .ASP intranet solution.  On the plate for our alternatives were either a complete re-write in .NET, or using MOSS 2007. 

    After reviewing the materials provided by the Microsoft propaganda machine and going through an evaluation period, we were excited and convinced that MOSS was going to be the way to go.  The feature set was very promising, and the community support seemed to imply that it could do almost anything we wanted, with minor customization or a bit of extensible coding.

    We bit the bullet, convinced the BOD to pony up enough funds to get licenses and necessary hardware, as well as some training for our developers to start climbing the learning curve.  Two months after purchase, we’re shelving MOSS and going back to a .NET re-write.  Why?

    Security

    Our company might be unique in how we structure our users.  We have a dual-layer of roles, rights, and responsibilities that SharePoint cannot seem to handle with any level of success.  There is a typical hierarchy of corporate roles, departments, etc. that most companies would have, but we also have a secondary layer that throws a wrench into the gearbox – individual “projects” that could almost be considered subsidiary companies. 

    Our clients are such that each “project” is its own contract, bound on paper to provide its OWN hierarchy of corporate resources, roles, etc.  In some cases these roles overlap corporate logic, in others they do not.  Employee A might have certain general abilities on the corporate level (like seeing other employee’s data), but within Project X, that same employee might not be able to see anything more than Employee B, assuming they even have an ability to access Project X to begin with.

    SharePoint has its groups, and has its audiences, and has its permission levels, but after strenuous research, it seems the implementation of “our” security model within a SharePoint environment would be daunting at best, as well as a maintenance nightmare.   SharePoint groups aren’t nestable – you apparently cannot have a group within a group.  SharePoint audiences have been widely stated to not be used as a security model.

    In the end we basically determined that we would need groups to cover our corporate roles, and then we would need individual groups for each “project” – and each role within that project.  Which would mean 500+ groups – either SharePoint groups or Active Directory groups – to cover all of the variances that our business logic demands.

    Applying Security

    Assuming that we could get the structure down, there were two ways to apply that security within SharePoint (or really any system) – at item creation, or at the time of viewing.  SharePoint seems to be amenable to both methods – but both methods also had their drawbacks in some fashion or another.  Applying permissions at time of item creation (defining which set of users or groups that had permission to see the new document, calendar entry, etc) is fine until those roles change. 

    What happens when something changes that would affect those applied permissions?  Would we have to iterate through an indefinite number of lists and libraries to re-apply permissions based on those changes? 

    We thought that to be the case, so view-based filtering seemed more logical, more server-friendly, and more real-time – it’s how we handle it in our current intranet. 

    Would SharePoint allow us to write custom events to filter out stuff at time of presentation based upon whether the viewer was part of ProjectXRoleY group but not part of CorporateRole234 group? 

    Could we stop the display of certain links or buttons (a modify button perhaps, or a delete function) based on the same dual-layer of permission possibilities?  From what we read, this was not easily possible.

    Maintenance

    Along with the 500+ groups comes with it maintenance of those groups.  Out of the box, there’s no way to see what groups a SharePoint user belongs to.  There are third-party solutions to this, or we could write our own, so that’s really minor.   What isn’t minor is when a new employee comes on board, they might have to be added to 50 groups to cover their roles in the company – something our current intranet handles with a couple of drop-down boxes and an array of well-worded checkboxes.  In SharePoint, they would have to be manually added to the groups.  Ouch.

    Development Headaches

    SharePoint, despite all of the Microsoft recommendations for having multiple “farms” for development, staging, and production – provides no easy way to synchronize data between them, especially in a team development environment.  That’s a bold statement that I expect to get a lot of flack on, but let’s step back and look at this without the rose-colored glasses.

    In a standard development environment, your team of developers create, break, troubleshoot and design on a set of servers, then deploy working, tested code to a secondary environment for further testing before finally being deployed to production.

    A lot(!) of SharePoint functionality can be handled through the GUI, making it what some would call user-friendly.  However, there is no easy way to transport those changes from one farm to another.  Say you wanted to add a new column to a list and you do it via the GUI.  Life is good in that farm, but to get that one little change over to the next farm you… could export the entire site and then import it, crossing your fingers that it will import properly.    You could write a custom export handler that only exports that list.. and, again, hope that it will import properly.  You could simply go to the GUI of the next farm and create it as you did in development – but that negates the testing process as human error comes into play.

    Or you could add the column from code, deploy that code as a feature, or, more widely recommended, package it as a solution and deploy the solution package – both of which involves tedious work with XML files and hoping that you play nice with SharePoint’s API so it will install properly.

    STSADM (which is another subject altogether as to why a product in 2007 would rely so heavily on a command prompt) is extensible to allow for custom commands – and there has been some wonderful work in this regard (Greg Lapointe should be knighted), but.. it cannot be coded to work with multiple farms.  We thought this would have been our savior – write a custom event to copy, say, the above new column example from Development to Testing – but alas, this is not the case.  Greg indicated that the SPWeb and SPSite API cannot cross farm lines, thus rending STSADM incapable of performing this functionality.  Enjoy your packaging.

    Going in reverse is an even bigger headache.  If your users report a fun new error with some new data they entered, reputable shops would work on a copy of the production data as part of the break/fix troubleshooting process.  However, the only way to go in reverse from production to a testing environment seems to be to make a backup of the site in question, and restore it to a dummy farm somewhere.  This process could literally take hours.  Some problems cannot wait that long, which would mean troubleshooting in production or a change in SLA – both of which are Bad Things™.

    General What-Were-They-Thinkings

    No referential integrity between lists?  This was a major pill for us to swallow – that SharePoint would allow for list linking via lookup columns but not reinforce any parent/child data relationships between those lists.  Delete an important list and suddenly 30 others have NULL for data.  Oops?  Yes, this can be worked-around through custom event handlers that check for references, but, really, why should we have to bear the responsibility for fixing this glaring error.

    Document storage in the content database?  I know this is an issue that divides certain development communities – storing file data within a database, but I happen to be on the side that files should stay on the… file system.  Wacky idea, I know, but I don’t like thinking that someone uploading a 50 meg VISIO file, then making 3 revisions to it (because versioning IS a good thing), and having that process bloat my SQL database by 200 megabytes.  That’s 200 megabytes longer that I have to wait in a DR scenario where I have to restore this database.  Exacerbate that by our 50+ “projects” that started this mess to begin with, and our poor little SQL database is going to be gigantic.

    Yes, storing them on the file system would still make recovery take just as long – at least, FULL recovery.  Users might not need some/most document libraries in order for the company to be productive.  Critical areas could be brought online first, and then the less-important document areas could be brought online AFTER the floodwaters have started to recede, rather than making everyone wait while the entire city is rebuilt before they can get any work done at all.

    So to me, storing documents in the database.. bad juju.

    Overall

    This was not knee-jerk for us – we had a team of six full time on this issue for two solid months – attending conferences, webinars, and scouring for every nugget of wisdom we could find within the SharePoint community.  We spoke to a few MVP experts that pointed us in various directions, but with no definitive eureka-moments that provided enough “ok we can do this” without the looming overshadows of “ok how do we maintain this” or “does the company need to change its business logic to make this work?”  Regarding the latter, we feel, as does our executive level, that the company’s policies  shouldn’t have to conform to the technology – the technology should be adaptive to the policies.

    There were just too many minuses for us to proceed with MOSS as a viable solution, at least in its present state.  Nothing about SP1 suggests that our issues were addressed, so we presume we are largely unique in our requirements and hopes for their product.  Perhaps the next iteration of MOSS will provide a beefier security model and some more intelligent design on the part of Microsoft, especially if they intend this to be an enterprise-level solution.

    I’ve no doubt that SharePoint is successful for most companies – we are keeping it on the back burner in case any of our “projects” could benefit from using it within the scope that it is usable.  Unfortunately, overall, it’s not successful for THIS company.

    For now, it’s back to C#.NET ASPX solution, a clean drawing board, and probably 6 less servers.

    I welcome constructive feedback – but please keep your flames to yourself.

    Johan

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    Sept. 10
    Sept. 2
    Picture of Anonymous
    Len wrote:
    Johan, you are spot on. Nice work, laying bare the ugly bones of this cow.
    Aug. 27
    Patrick Rotewrote:
    Failed Adventures with MOSS 2007 = A BIG LIE.
    Get you handys dirty and start doing some work.
    This article didn't make any sense. What time do you have to build sharepoint using C#, ASP.NET

    Ask yourself is the business going to wait for this...Or by time you are ready their plans could have changed:)
    You are right it could be trdious to get somethings done.
    But common ..... Wise up. Its just another product
    June 30
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    June 27
    Picture of Anonymous
    Dan wrote:
    Johan, I'm with you...though I don't have the admin perspective but rather the developer's.
     
    I think the thing is: SharePoint is a great out-of-the-box solution for the average company who wants to manage documents and maybe have their own cute little sub-sites and wiki-this or that.  It's like Front Page: people who have no clue what they're doing can pretend they're web developers and have a website that actually does something.  (Before I get angry replies, I'm not talking about the SharePoint developers/admins who specialize in actual SharePoint solutions.  Actually, hats off to you guys for having the patience to put up with it all!!)
     
    As a SEASONED .NET developer who's been asked to customize the thing so it does everything except make coffee, I can tell you the story we were all sold on customizing MOSS '07 is a load of bunk!  Sure, it can be customized, but I'll spend weeks trying to figure out why a web part or user control is erroring...or not installing...or doing nothing at all.  There's been several times where I've viewed webcasts that were supposed to walk us through doing different customizations where the presenter couldn't even get it to work right.  The demos/examples/webcasts that do work are so grossly simplified that they're essentially not useful.
     
    The tools necessary to make SharePoint the "development platform" that Microsoft would like us to believe it is simply aren't there...and what is there (yes, SharePoint Designer, I'm referring to you) are so buggy that I'd say I won't ever use them...except there's certain things you HAVE to use them for!  I mean, c'mon, when was the last time Microsoft put out a product where the Undo/Redo functionality didn't work?  Isn't that just a reusable module they plug into all their stuff?  ...it should be by now!
     
    I know there's people out there who think SharePoint is the greatest thing in the world.  Honestly, I don't see it, but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions, right?  It seems to me, though, that the people who think it's the greatest are the ones who struggled through earlier version of SharePoint, which (although, I find it hard to believe) was much, much worse!  I guess my opinion is that if some thing sucks but is better than it used to be, it still sucks.  Maybe it's because I come from the world of traditional web development where everything works...or if it doesn't, there's useful error messages and extensive documentation on MSDN and other websites to fix the problem. 
     
    Anyway, if it were up to me I'd probably scrap the customizations we're trying to do with it and just stick with the out-of-the-box stuff.  I'm pretty sure that's where's it's real strength is anyway.
    June 5
    May 4
    Ah I love those 'keep your flames to yourself' postscript notes - like a beacon for invitation for some of us.
     
    Johan, not sure what sort of corporate org charts they are working on over there, but certainly not the 'norm'. Has anyone ever done a gap analysis into the efficiencies of running 'projects' of yours in the manner of which they are managed? Does anyone ever know who's accountable for what? Sounds like quite the ambiguous RACI chart one would ever imagine.
     
    "Traditionally" - oh man that word - yes traditionally the 'technology should match the business processes and drivers' - but lets face it - there is something today called 'best practices' and sorry, Johan - reading your blog does not resound a lot of faith that you are a 'continually improving' sort of organization, more like a lot of 'fail'. I've seen SharePoint flex and bend far more in far less than two months time to assertain positively that for the $250 a client access licence, that it would far meet and exceed most 'common' businesses out there in budget, especially those that seem to have Microsoft Office running on every desktop (might want to check with Billy, but I think he's got it in every company in North America by now).
     
    I'd suggest a few things, like combining AD groups with SharePoint groups, tabs, site level/web part level permissions - you can get quite a few many combinations out of that alone. I can't help but assumethe effectiveness of that, because your C-Suite sounds more to me like the 'old guard' who forgot about why change is important, instead of trying to bend the reality inside of the 4 walls of the company. #1 reason why most windows in companies today do not have openings. Think about it. New ideas BAD.
     
    Why are you trying to make SharePoint a DR tool as well? Some of the points you brought up, yeah ok, but the DR one...did you read your points? I'd much rather replicate a few SQL db's over a few servers and get better performance (see DB tuning) then to grossly tax a file system based DR - the sort of 'get me back to normal' times you are talking about require some expensive high-availablity DR hardware/software combo's that will dent your budget. You see, this is why most company's can't stand the IT department - were a blatant cost center.
     
    I wanted to comment about the production support enviromnent techniques you blamed on SharePoint, but I think this is spiraling, not what you want to 'hear', and I think you made up your mind T-minus 2 months into the SharePoint discovery that you were going to program it yourself. I really think the path in your success of your company lies in the acceptance of some brutal honesty coming from a mirror near you. That and some best practices. Good luck with that!
    Mar. 2
    Dave Wongwrote:

    I too firmly believe that documents should be stored on a file store that is only visible to the SharePoint web servers. If this were the case, you are able to leverage SharePoint great document management capabilities whilst keeping the database at a ‘manageable’ size.  Keeping database restore time to a minimum is extremely important as it means ‘not keeping all your eggs (ata and documents) in one basket (a database)’.

     

    I do also feel that there is another justification for storing documents outside of SharePoint. Our organisation is well known for generating documents in excess of 50Mb in size. We also have a large number of ‘satellite’ offices who’s connection to the corporate internet is quite modest in size (a T1 line). Add to this the latency generated by a geographic distribution of offices as far a field as Germany and California and we soon conclude that downloading a 50Mb file every time you want to view it is simply not feasible.

     

    Currently our Technical Operations folks have resolved this challenge by implementing file replication using Packeteer IShared and Shaper technology.  Packeteer are Microsoft partners.  So, we’re now faced with the prospect of EITHER implementing cool document management (and unacceptable network performance) OR have acceptable performance but being unable to utilise a key component of SharePoint.

     

    Microsoft know this to be an useful feature as they have implemented it before in Source Safe, where there was an ability to switch to store source files in either the DB or on a file store.

    Feb. 26
    No namewrote:

    Johan:

    Your comments are very insightful.  It is indeed necessary to address the challenges you have identified in order to make Sharepoint business ready, and deployable in a reasonable amount of time.  And, of course, more importantly, to enable real business!

     

    We have had customers face similar challenges while trying to use SharePoint and Active Directory to run real projects as you have described.  

    If you analyze organizations from first principles, there are three parts that work together.  There is the formal organization where people have formal Titles and responsibilities defined in general.  The organization chart reflects this well, and it also shows formal peer and supervisory reporting relationships.  It is easy to map Active Directory assignments to the organizational chart and IT departments routinely do this.  This often works well for ERP type assignments as well since they tend to be fairly fixed. 

    However, mapping dynamic roles to what we call the "real" organization that charged with the reality of running specific knowledge-intensive missions – projects, initiatives, deals, asset development, product development, etc – does not lend itself well to Active Directory roles.  This is because individuals play multiple "mission-specific" roles based on what they’re involved with (tied to experience and expertise), and because these roles change dynamically with the needs of the Mission and related factors (resource availability for instance).  The real organization also has to consider the roles of both people within the enterprise, as well as outside partners and/or suppliers (forming an extraprise reflecting the reality of mission-specific initiatives).

    Furthermore, these mission-specific roles are subject to information security authorization controls (need to know), and to an array of parallel compliance and governance requirements.  Active Directory or similar LDAP systems were simply not designed to deal with fine-grained role and responsibility assignments and how they relate to information security; also because of their dynamic nature and because assignment decisions are usually driven by business directives, it is not practical to force a centralized IT function to actually perform such assignments. 

    Indeed, from a need-to-know perspective, people in IT and IM roles may not even be authorized to do so – for example, in the context of a "project" related to a sensitive asset or company acquisition that is subject to a range of compliance and information security controls. 

    The third type of organization – the informal peer-to-peer or social network – is one that does lend itself well to the ad hoc type of collaboration in a Sharepoint setting that enhances people interactions, and that leads to innovation and ideation through collaboration and peer networking.

    We at PointCross have develop proven technologies that deal very well with the needs of the second type of organization – the "real" organization - in a very practical manner.  Our technology platform Orchestra and its companion desktop client Solo have been used within large enterprises for the past several years.  

    Orchestra+Solo also combine to form a powerful enterprise backbone (UBIS – short for Unified Business Information Services) for organizations that are deploying or looking at Sharepoint in order to make it business and enterprise ready, and specifically to address the types of challenges you have identified.   

    Shree

    (http://www.pointcross.com)

     

    Jan. 15
    Venkywrote:
    Sorry to hear that SharePoint didn't meet expectations at your company. My team is working hard on a number of security (authN and authZ) improvements for the next version and I would love hear about your complex requirements to test our work.
     
    Venky (Program Manager, Office SharePoint Server)
    Jan. 14
    Jasonwrote:
    Sounds to me as if you need to leverage your authentication provider more (active directory?) to manage your company security policies rather than trying to force it all into SharePoint. Assign SharePoint groups to the SharePoint resources to be protected and put AD groups in those, don't try to build your entire security model with SharePoint -- that isn't what it's for. IOW, build the security taxonomy in AD then map to SharePoint.
    Jan. 11
    Imukaiwrote:
    David,
     
    Oh indeed, we will be keeping it around for times that we have a project that can benefit.  It would be silly to throw away 40k software.  :)  I'm curious if others with similar security requirements have found a way to hammer them into the provided structure, though, since it drove us collectively crazy.
     
    Patrick,
     
    Can you send me an email or give me some contact details? I'd be interested to hear about your upcoming product!
     
    Thank you for the comments.
    Jan. 11
    Picture of Anonymous
    David Wise wrote:
    Johan,
     
    SharePoint is a good fit for 90% of what companies need it for.  Unfortunately, because it is such a good fit elsewhere, companies and applications that fall into that remaining 10% will sometimes try to shoehorn their needs into what it can do and end up with a bad experience.  I'm glad you were able to reach that conclusion before you got too far down the road.
     
    However, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Just because SharePoint isn't a good match for the needs of this particular application does not mean that you should pull the plug on the whole thing.  Your company probably has a lot of other needs, like corporate communications, content management, departmental collaboration and such where SharePoint is likely an ideal fit.
     
    David
    Jan. 10
    patrickwrote:
    Hello!

    I was very interested by your article. We are about to release a solution for your SharePoint security concerns. Information is not yet on available our web site as it is pre-release but I would be happy to schedule a Webex demonstration. Your feedback and requirements would be really appreciated.

    Patrick
    Jan. 4

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